TH: In the quote from your book I mentioned above, what are the "traces" of temporality that are still left over in the windswept landscape "almost devoid of all traces of temporality," a "world without time," that has been created by modern physics?
CR: Change. It is important not to confuse "time" and "change." We tend to confuse these two important notions because in our experience we can merge them: we can order all the change we experience along a universal one-dimensional oriented line that we call "time." But change is far more general than time. We can have "change," namely "happenings," without any possibility of ordering sequences of these happenings along a single time variable.
There is a mistaken idea that it is impossible to describe or to conceive change unless there exists a single flowing time variable. But this is wrong. The world is change, but it is not [fundamentally] ordered along a single timeline. Often people fall into the mistake that a world without time is a world without change: a sort of frozen eternal immobility. It is in fact the opposite: a frozen eternal immobility would be a world where nothing changes and time passes. Reality is the contrary: change is ubiquitous but if we try to order change by labeling happenings with a time variable, we find that, contrary to intuition, we can do this only locally, not globally.
TH: Isn't there a contradiction in your language when you suggest that the common-sense notion of the passage of time, at the human level, is not actually an illusion (just a part of the larger whole), but that in actuality we live in a "world without time"? That is, if time is fundamentally an illusion isn't it still an illusion at the human scale?
CR: What I say is not "we live in a world without time." What I say is "we live in a world without time at the fundamental level." There is no time in the basic laws of physics. This does not imply that there is no time in our daily life. There are no cats in the fundamental equations of the world, but there are cats in my neighborhood. Nice ones. The mistake is not using the notion of time [at our human scale]. It is to assume that this notion is universal, that it is a basic structure of reality. There are no micro-cats at the Planck scale, and there is no time at the Planck scale. [...]
TH: I'm surprised you state this degree of certainty here when in your book you acknowledge that the nature of time is one of physics' last remaining large questions. Andrew Jaffe, in a review of your book for Nature, writes that the issues you discuss "are very much alive in modern physics."
CR: The debate on the nature of time is very much alive, but it is not a single debate about a single issue, it is a constellation of different issues, and presentism is just a rather small side of it. Examples are the question of the source of the low initial entropy, the source of our sense of flow, the relation between causality and entropy. The non-viability of presentism is accepted by almost all relativists.
In part two, "The World without Time", Rovelli puts forward the idea that events (just a word for a given time and location at which something might happen), rather than particles or fields, are the basic constituents of the world. The task of physics is to describe the relationships between those events: as Rovelli notes, "A storm is not a thing, it's a collection of occurrences." At our level, each of those events looks like the interaction of particles at a particular position and time; but time and space themselves really only manifest out of their interactions and the web of causality between them.
TH: You argue that "the world is made of events, not things" in part II of your book. Alfred North Whitehead also made events a fundamental feature of his ontology, and I'm partial to his "process philosophy." If events-happenings in time-are the fundamental "atoms" of spacetime (as Whitehead argues), shouldn't this accentuate the importance of the passage of time in our ontology, rather than downgrade it as you seem to otherwise suggest?
CR: "Time" is a stratified notion. The existence of change, by itself, does not imply that there is a unique global time in the universe. Happenings reveal change, and change is ubiquitous, but nothing states that this change should be organized along the single universal uniform flow that we commonly call time. The question of the nature of time cannot be reduced to a simple "time is real", "time is not real." It is the effort of understanding the many different layers giving rise to the complex phenomenon that we call the passage of time.
