Debate Magazine

A Polite Response to Flying Junior

Posted on the 18 August 2011 by Mikeb302000
Who made the following comments on the post "American Independence: A blessing or a curse?":

Flying Junior said...

That's the dumbest thing I ever heard in my entire life. Shut the fuck up and get the hell off of this blog, you dumb fucking limey barrister.

August 18, 2011 7:29 AM

Flying Junior said...


August 18, 2011 7:38 AM
This is an amazing demonstration of closed mindedness. You show an amount of ignorance which staggers belief for quite a few reasons.

First off, these are not constructive comments, but venting of emotion.

Secondly, You demonstrate a lack of understanding of late 18th Century North American History.

That is the North American Colonists were British subjects who were demanding their rights as Britons. One of the complaints in the Declaration of Independence was:
For abolishing the free System of English Laws

They also talk about "our British brethren". In fact, Thomas Jefferson said:
Believe me, dear Sir: there is not in the British empire a man who more cordially loves a union with Great Britain than I do. But, by the God that made me, I will cease to exist before I yield to a connection on such terms as the British Parliament propose; and in this, I think I speak the sentiments of America.—November 29, 1775
At least five signatories to the American Declaration of Independence and Seven Members of the Constitutional Convention belonged to the Middle Temple Inn of Court . How symbolic it is that copies of the American Constitution and the Declaration of Independence hang on the wall of the library of the Middle Temple in London. After all, they were the force behind both of them.
A Polite Response to Flying Junior
This is a description of one of the Signers of the Declaration of Independence, Edward Rutledge:
After receiving a good English and classical education, young Rutledge commenced the study of law with his elder brother, John, who was then a distinguished member of the Charleston bar. As a finishing stroke in his legal education, preparatory to his admission to the bar, he was sent to England at the age of twenty, and entered as a student at the Inner Temple, London, where he had an opportunity of witnessing the forensic eloquence of those master spirits of the times, Mansfield, Wedderburn, Thurlow, Dunning, Chatham and Camden... A number of Inns of Court, or sort of colleges for teaching the law were established in London at various times. The Temple (of which there were three Societies, namely, the Inner, the Middle, and the Outer) was originally founded, and the Temple Church built, by the Knights Templar, in the reign of Henry II, 1185. The Inner and Middle Temple were made Inns of Law in the reign of Edward III., about 1340; the Outer, not until the reign of Elizabeth, about 1560.
Here is the biography of another signer of the Declaration of Independence, Arthur Middleton:
His parents were Henry Middleton and Mary Baker Williams. He was educated in Britain, at Harrow School, Westminster School, and Trinity Hall, Cambridge. He studied law at the Middle Temple and traveled extensively in Europe where his taste in literature, music, and art was developed and refined.

Keenly interested in Carolina politics, Arthur Middleton was a more radical thinker than his father, Henry Middleton. He was a leader of the American Party in Carolina and one of the boldest members of the Council of Safety and its Secret Committee. In 1776, Arthur was elected to succeed his father in the Continental Congress and subsequently was a signer of the United States Declaration of Independence. Also in 1776, he and William Henry Drayton designed the Great Seal of South Carolina. Despite the time he spent in England, his attitude toward Loyalists was said to be ruthless.

While it is hard for one to understand how life was twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, yet alone 240 years ago, I believe I have a good understanding of the mindset of the founders having a similar background to them as a dual US-UK Citizen.

I should also add that being a Tory did not mean that one was against Independence> You can see what a Tory North America would be by simply looking to the North: Canada. The Treaty of Paris (1783) recognized American independence and ceded territories south of the Great Lakes to the United States. New Brunswick was split from Nova Scotia as part of a reorganization of Loyalist settlements in the Maritimes.

Canada eventually gained it's independence, but through legal and non-violent means.

The Tories were not like those who wanted Independence and wanted it NOW (then?). There were those who felt that Independence should be achieved through legal means. It can be argued that that would have been the correct course of action, but that is through hindsight. Additionally, there were those who supported Independence, yet once they had thought that their goal had been achieved chose to support Britain--Most Notably Benedict Arnold.

But before you tar and feather Arnold, be aware that he distinguished himself acts of cunning and bravery as a leader of the Continental Army. His actions included the Capture of Fort Ticonderoga in 1775, defensive and delaying tactics despite losing the Battle of Valcour Island on Lake Champlain in 1776, the Battle of Ridgefield, Connecticut (after which he was promoted to major general), operations in relief of the Siege of Fort Stanwix, and key actions during the pivotal Battles of Saratoga in 1777, in which he suffered leg injuries that ended his combat career for several years. Arnold's Role in Saratoga was so significant that it was still commemorated with a monument.

The Problem is that the Tories were the losers. John Adams said that 1/3 of the US Population Supported Independence, another 1/3 supported Union with Britain, and 1/3 couldn't care either way. Historians' best estimates put the proportion of adult white male loyalists somewhere between 15 and 20 percent. Approximately half the colonists of European ancestry tried to avoid involvement in the struggle — some of them deliberate pacifists, others recent immigrants, and many more simple apolitical folk. The patriots received active support from perhaps 40 to 45 percent of the white populace, and at most no more than a bare majority

I would direct you to an event known as Shays' Rebellion which occurred only three years after the American Revolution ended, thousands of Massachusetts citizens took up arms against their new state government. This site tells the story of Shays' Rebellion, and a crucial period in our nation's founding when the survival of the republican experiment in government was neither destined nor assured.

Shays' Rebellion was a significant factor in the decision to rewrite the Articles of Confederation, an exercise that turned into the US Constitution and Bill of Rights. Here are common reactions to Shays' Rebellion of the Time.

Henry Lee:
"You talk, my good sir, of employing influence to appease the present tumults in Massachusetts. I know not where that influence is to be found, or, if attainable, that it would be a proper remedy for the disorders. Influence is not government. Let us have a government by which our lives, liberties, and properties will be secured, or let us know the worst at once."

Samuel Adams said thias about the Rebellion:
"Rebellion against a king may be pardoned, or lightly punished, but the man who dares to rebel against the laws of a republic ought to suffer death."

George Washington wrote:
"I am mortified beyond expression when I view the clouds that have spread over the brightest morn that ever dawned in any country... What a triumph for the advocates of despotism, to find that we are incapable of governing ourselves and that systems founded on the basis of equal liberty are merely ideal and fallacious."

As I said, your comments demonstrate a considerable amount of closed mindedness and ignorance.

I don't appreciate your unwillingness to be open to the well grounded opinions of others.

You are under no obligation to read my posts. I am not forcing you to do so.

I do resent your desire to silence me because I said something that you are too closed minded to appreciate.

I will remain here, but someone who shows the inability to make positive and constructive comments and lacks knowledge or willingness to learn like yourself is not a loss to this forum.

See also:
Hogeland, William Declaration: The Nine Tumul Weeks When America Became Independent, May 1-July 4, 1776
"" "Inventing American History"
(Actually all of Bill's books are excellent)
Edward Rutledge
Peyton Randolph
Loyalist (American Revolution)
Revolutionary War Loyalist history and genealogy

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